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Unpleasant, mean spirited, perverse – is this a game that people will wish to play? PDF Print E-mail
Written by Ian Fraser   
Tuesday, 20 July 2010 18:34

alan_kwan(Update: Discussion closed. See concluding column by the editor)

Ian Fraser reflects upon the European Championship Riichi Mahjong. A great event, that's for sure. Yet - returned home, he finds himself with a niggling dissatisfaction.

 

 

The EC Riichi 2010 was a thoroughly well organised tournament and, for the vast majority of the time and of the games played a most enjoyable experience, being conducted in a friendly and sporting manner between all the participants..

Even so, I find myself with a niggling dissatisfaction.    Compared with the 2008 Riichi tournament, did I notice something of a shift towards ‘entrapment’ of opponents via some ‘fundamentalist’ interpretation of the rules, and/or the tournament referees’ instructions?    

Here are three real life examples from the weekend:

1.  At the start of a hand Player One notices that Player Two (who is scoring) has not collected his thirteenth tile.   He says nothing about this at the time, but two turns later, pounces to claim a Chombo immediately that Player Two claims a tile for chi - quite openly stating that he had noticed the infringement from the outset of the hand.

2.  A relatively inexperienced tournament player agrees to score.    The player makes Mangan, agreed by all as Mangan, duly recorded by the scorer.    Before hardly another tile is touched, certainly before a wall is built or the deal begun, the player recalls that he was East and should have recorded 12,000 not 8,000.   “Too late – it’s written down now.”

3.  A player calls Pon, takes the tile and notices that his hand is now complete and wishes to modify the call to Ron.     Referee is called, pronounces the player’s hand to be dead and issues a metaphorical “yellow card”.

For my money, example one is just plain unpleasant, and I simply don’t buy any notion of hiding behind the tournament referee’s instruction ‘not to comment’, even though we all fully understand the rationale for the basic proposition.     Example two is mean spirited, and item three (even though so ruled by the referee) is both perverse and unnecessary.   Just who has been disadvantaged, I pray, in any of these instances?   This is not a plea to play the game to “just some of the rules.”    Penalties and sanctions for significant errors are part and parcel of every game and sport.  In mahjong they are appropriate when any action breaches a principle of equity to all players.   Perhaps someone would care to defend these instances against that standard?

Unpleasant, mean spirited, perverse – is this a game that people will wish to play?   I warn exponents of these forms of behaviour that if you behave like this (presumably in order to win?) then pretty soon you will have no one left to beat - except perhaps a few fellow sticklers and charlatans.   But then maybe, if it’s ingrained in your character, the warning will not make any difference.

The mahjong community is a small one.   Before it risks alienating elements within itself, (and I am thinking in particular of less experienced players) I recommend that it provide a welcoming, encouraging and supportive environment that will help to induct newcomers, and encourage them to return, helping to grow the community.

I am not blaming Ben or Kaji in any instance – rather I am assuming they were either doing what they were asked to do, or what their cultural experiences suggested to them they ought to do as referees – but each one of these instances leaves a pretty unpleasant taste in the mouth.    As a non MCR player, I am being led to believe that MCR is played in this ‘catch as catch can’ fashion and that we are merely seeing that attitude bleed over into the Riichi variant.  SO  “Dear EMA, at the very least for Riichi events, please let us put a stop to it immediately, before it is too late.   It is not so important to operate this way ‘because the Japanese do’ – even if they do, which I doubt.     We are not exactly playing in million dollar prize events here.

Personally, I am old enough and ugly enough to take all this behaviour in my stride, and, for the most part, content myself merely by holding a pretty low opinion of exponents of these and similar practices.   But I have seen enough people discouraged from playing bridge in a competitive environment by - shall we call it – overzealous prosecution of the rule book, to recognise the warning signs.   Note that bridge has significantly more adherents (in the Western Hemisphere at least) and, arguably, can afford to hack off a few hundred people (though you wouldn’t think so, as each competitive gathering becomes smaller, and the average age of the participants rises).

How about this as an offer of new Rules One, Two, Three and Four?

“It is the duty of every player to create a pleasant play experience for fellow players.  This includes helping others whenever possible to avoid procedural penalty, and actively offering assistance to ensure that full benefit is obtained from hand patterns constructed and scoring due.  If in doubt, just help out!”


Ian Fraser is a riichi mahjong teacher in the United Kingdom. He participated in both the EC Riichi 2008 and 2010. In the UK, he was a co-organiser of the UK Riichi Invitational and the first UK Riichi Open, and he is one of the initiators of the UKMA (UK Mahjong Association).
Last Updated on Saturday, 21 August 2010 11:43
 
Comments (36)
1 Wednesday, 21 July 2010 02:28
Wortex
If you are not punished for mistakes, when are you going to learn? Attending a _championship tournament_ you should KNOW HOW TO PLAY THE GAME.
2 Wednesday, 21 July 2010 07:32
Benjamin Boas
I was the managing referee for EC Riichi 2010 and was personally responsible for most of the decisions Ian addresses here.

I think that Ian raises some very important points and even though I do not agree with all of his conclusions I certainly appreciate his sentiments. It is tough to strike a balance between enforcement and encouragement and I welcome discussion on the subject.

Furthermore, and I would like to be very clear on this, I absolutely agree that the draconian environment of many MCR tournaments is something that should be done away with--not just for Riichi but MCR as well. However, I do not think that any of the above calls were overly harsh.

I am planning a series of columns on reachmahjong.com that address these and other issues more in detail. The first such column has already been written (and predates Ian's column) and will hopefully be published soon.
3 Wednesday, 21 July 2010 10:19
Bunta
I think mistakes should be punished, but the examples Ian stated shouldn´t be punished as they were.

Case 1: If you notice some players missing tiles, just tell them and they have a dead hand! I think this way it doesnt effect the game and the player is punished as she/he cant win any points in this hand. But with a chombo everybody gets points they dont deserve and maybe these points will make the difference in 1st or 2nd place overall. So it benefits players that sat at a table with an inexperienced player.

Case 2: If the next hand hadnt started, it should be okay to switch the score. Cuz in this example the yaku were correct, it was only forgotten to score more points for the dealer. This should be no problem, especially when the writer was inexpirenced with writing down the score. (this wouldnt happen if we would play with scoring sticks, cuz everybody should be familiar with these)

Case 3: The player claimed a tile. If i think about the pronunciation of the majority of players you werent even able to hear the difference in pon and ron. If she/he noticed before displaying the pon, its no problem. Cuz most of the time you had to wait for the players action to see what was claimed, cuz you couldnt understand!

We need penalties for mistakes, of course! But we also need to play the game and have fun, cuz this is the most important part of it. Having fun with poeple who love the game as much as we do!!!

Like Ian said, there is no money involved, so we should have a fair and nice competition. In all the other tournaments there is no need for a referee, cuz its always a good cooperation of the players. So why is there a need to change this in the ERC? Its the European Championships, okay, but its just an other tournament.

So lets continue having fun and dont get too serious. Its just a game, but the best game i ever played!!!!!!!!
4 Wednesday, 21 July 2010 10:27
Norbert Luckhardt
I have to disagree here about the depicted spirit and environment of MCR, which now already came up twice on this page: At least for myself I have never experienced a MCR tournament which was ruled as stern as the passed EC Riichi.

MCR has obviously quite a bunch of well-defined penalties for many situations, but they're by far not enforced all the time. And there's (at least) two things, which shouldn't be missed (and may also be helpful for Riichi):
- for small infringements there's a progressive warning: the first yields a "yellow card", the following (in the same session) give increasing, but not drastic point penalties - the "entry fine" in Riichi (besides just telling "don't do that again") is a dead hand...
- MCR has the written (!) rule "Don't sue the principle" and the EMA made clear in their tournament regulations "We appeal on all players to practice fair play and to foster self arbitration as much as possible. Don’t make a fuss about everything and please refrain from calling a referee for every ‘petty mistake’" - players who keep doing so may even be penalized themselves
5 Wednesday, 21 July 2010 17:31
Mark Chizhenok
Without going into long arguments (some of them have been already made) I would like to point out to the author of the above article and to those who sympathise "let's have fun" movement:

- do not confuse "fair play" with "have fun" or "we are friends";

- do not confuse tournaments with casual game;

- EMA makes tournaments, not casual games;

Moreover, you should be prepared for inevitable: if EMA continues to develop mahjong as a sport (I hope they will), the tournaments will become more and more organized and regulated, the players and national association will demand more rules and order. If everything goes well there will be a day when the majority players do not know each other and nobody would ask for "offer of assistance" from other players and the players who try to play like in early days ("Hey, pal, do not forget to take replacement after the kong!") will look strange and disturbing.
6 Thursday, 22 July 2010 10:16
Bunta
I agree with Mark that the EMA makes tournaments not casual games, but where is written tournaments are no fun, they are dead serious?
Of course i play serious Mahjong in a tournament and my goal is to win. However i wanna have fun and i think the majority of players want that too. Otherwise they wouldnt spent money to travel to tournament where you can win nothing!

Like Ian pointed out, we are in the beginning with Mahjong (esp. Riichi) in Europe and we wanna get more players, not less. So i think we need to have a friendly atmosphere at tournaments to encourage the players having fun and continue playing the game.

In the current situation with many players still learing the game strict rulings will make them lose the fun.
7 Thursday, 22 July 2010 12:09
Oliv'
+1 with Mark !

Oliv'
8 Thursday, 22 July 2010 14:20
Cap974
I play Mahjong (only with MCR rules, RCR later certainly) since one year and I hope make my first EMA tournament in september. Before that, i want to be sure to know EMA regulations to accept some penalties with fair play and im sure to have fun playing mahjong!!
I don't find MCR draconian!!
9 Thursday, 22 July 2010 14:50
Sandra van de Berkt
I agree with Ian Fraser.
In fact it is the main reason why I don't participate in MCR and Riichi tournaments any more. If you can only win a game by punish a player, you are a loser!
10 Thursday, 22 July 2010 18:21
Palcsi
I don't play RCR ( but very interested ) just I know some rules of it.
I think at the first case the guy was simply malicious and the referee simply can't say 'oh you are the bad guy and..', the second case well... it was a EC and if you are forget to count something where should be the limit until you can say 'oh I would like to add...' I think that is when you write down the scores. And counting is part of the game
The third case for me it's like the second. So in a tournament I think these are mistakes which shouldn' t have to be 'punished' but should have some 'consequences'. The result is the same but the feeling is different. So if you are making a mistake accept the penalty on the other hand don't hunt for other's mistakes.
I think everyone who sits down at a table at a _torunament_ should find some
balance between keeping the rules and fair play. But we are different and not everyone find this balance. But think about that if you are 'fair' to some unexperienced player (e.g. helping him/her in counting) at your table and later on he/she will win that table and by some luck finishing in a very good position at the end you were 'unfair' to players at the other tables because maybe they don't get this kind of 'help'. I think no one should ruin the game by pointing out minor mistakes and try to get punishment to the others all the time but really it happened to me 2 or 3 times that we let someone continue in the case of dead hand and at the end he/she won that table. And that's not a good feeling.
I'm just playing MCR but I think the rules are tending to be 'draconian' but as Mark pointed out ( I agree with him ) it's part of the game as it becoming a sport. I don't agree with all the new penalties in MCR but this is a relatively new sport so I think many things will change in it in the future. Also I never saw this 'catch as catch can' attitude at MCR tournaments I met players played like that but rules (or less rules) can't help on it
11 Thursday, 22 July 2010 21:09
Edwin Phua
I read the column with a lot of interest. I am from Southeast Asia, where there are a lot of people playing mahjong, but very little organised competition, whether for international rulesets such as MCR or RCR, or for local variants. Hence, I perhaps see the issue a little differently.

I mainly agree with Mark Chizhenok's comment, but I want to add some thoughts on one aspect that Ian did not quite fully consider, which is with regard to the kind/level of competition. High-level tournaments (e.g. continental or world championships) should be expected to have high standards of play, befitting the status of such tournaments attracting top players from various countries.

So, the tournament that Ian just participated in was the European regional championships. Many participants at such a higher level of play are unlikely to be so green; forgetting to take the 13th tile when starting a hand is really quite a big error! For some of the major mahjong-playing countries in Europe (e.g. Netherlands, Denmark, Germany), there have to be some nomination process, meaning that players from these countries have to be rather experienced and would have undergone some trials/qualification rounds before being able to participate.

So, the mistakes in the examples raised (particularly Examples 1 and 3) should not have happened in the first place because such mistakes seem too fundamental for experienced players to make, though, not to say they do not happen). And if they do, then they are deserving of penalties.

On the other hand, Ian also mentioned growing the mahjong community by providing a warm and supportive environment. Yes, I think this should be the case, but this should be done at the lower levels of play, in schools, community centres etc., and at lower levels of competition, say at fun, social tournaments, or local tournaments within a district/town/city. Rules can be modified, made less strict etc. at such levels of competition, because these tournaments would be seen as trying to grow the community and providing mahjong enthusiasts the chance to pit their skills against others, but in a more relaxed environment where mistakes can be made, and lessons learnt. More serious players can progress to play higher-level tournaments with the attendant levels of strictness.

Participation at a (continental/regional) tournament such as the ECRM is not aimed towards beginners; it should meant to be a competition for experienced, serious players. So, players participating should also be mentally prepared for tough competition (sometimes mean-spirited, sadly) and strict rules. That is not to say that new players should not try to participate, but such players should also have some self-awareness that it is not easy.
12 Thursday, 22 July 2010 21:24
Edwin Phua
On a different issue here from the one in the comment I made earlier. I think Mahjong Competition Rules seems to be so strict ('draconian') is because everything in mahjong becomes codified and set as rules. This is especially so since MCR was designed specifically for competitive play, rather than arising naturally as a variant for casual play.

For example, in MCR, every call is specified and has to be vocalised clearly, and has to mean exactly what is vocalised. In casual play however, for example, many people do not actually vocalise 'chow' when making a chow (since it is the player's own turn anyway), or to vocalise 'pung' when making a pung, kong, or even hu. But these instances happen in casual play, when the rules are not quite standardised (note, this is not for MCR, but for local variants; I come from Singapore, so this is my experience with Singaporean players).

So, anyway, looking at MCR, and comparing it with a less strict variant meant for casual play, of course MCR seems to be so unfriendly with all the penalties for trivial infringements. But MCR is tournament play, and disputes do occur, and such rules are meant to prevent either such disputes or to settle them fairly (although I believe there are still improvements to be made on this front).

Also, without clearly-defined rules and penalties, there can be occasions when mistakes are made and disputes arise, which can lead to a loss of fun. I doubt it is fun when every hand has some irregularity occurring without a good way of resolving. The fun should come from competing against other highly-skilled competitors playing their best, and not being hindered by disagreements that lead to unfair decisions made against one or more players.
13 Friday, 23 July 2010 04:28
Mark Chizhenok
Edwin made two excellent points: about the level of tournament which should be considered before complaining about roughness of rules and about the purpose of Mahjong COMPETITION Rules. I totally agree.
14 Friday, 23 July 2010 09:40
Norbert Luckhardt
so do I (agree with Edwin)! and I want to stress the fact, that tournament rules should be exact and complete - and this means, they include penalties for "standard situations" as far as possible to allow (!) for a standard way to handle them, IF there is need to do so.

The rules should serve the players and allow them to play in a fair way by making a definition of what's _perfectly_ right - minor infringements should go unpunished or with just a warning, when they do not occur willingly (as they usually do). But you need a means to sanction players who play foul on purpose - and that way should be well-defined.

(Except in severe cases of cheating or obstruction of the game) Only if the players disagree on a situation, referees should show up or be called and clear the dispute - but then they should obviuosly handle as many situations as possible in the very same way. The comprehensive "penalty catalogue" of MCR (and also the penalty rules in RCR) helps them do this - without it, everything would be up to an ad-hoc decision and I doubt that would be more fun.
15 Friday, 23 July 2010 10:02
P B
If you actually read the article, Ian is definitely not suggesting that mistakes should not be punished; he's advocating punishing amistake when it damages the opponents. Let's respect and enforce the rules; but let's not have punishing rules for the sake of it. As Bunta points out, all the cases mentioned by Ian can be resolved easily in a friendly way without affecting the game.
It doesn't matter whether it's a tournament or a kitchen game; you should enforce rules that make sure none of the players is damaged by other players' mistakes, but nothing else.
And the sad reality is that the attitude of the people who enforce some of these rules is not one of fairness, but one of taking advantage of these rules in order to get points, which is rather ugly. And in the worse cases, this will go to the next level, which I have sadly seen during this year's Guildford tournament, where a very experienced player who regularly plays in Riichi tournaments around Europe tried to convince some less experienced players that declaring Reach with an open hand was a chombo. Of course he knew that wasn't the case, but he tried to get an unfair advantage.
Fostering an attitude of fair and friendly play, with a sensible set of rules, will discourage this type of behaviour, encourage more people to join and enjoy the game and participate in tournaments.
Just this month I read an interview where Fulvio Fantoni, the number one bridge player in the world rankings, speaks passionately about the importance of friendliness and pleasantness in the game, including club and tournaments playing, and how much he dislikes people who call referees all the time to complain about tiny rules infringements by their opponents. If this principles and attitude is good enough for somebody who's won several world championships in a game much more complex than mahjong, I say it's good enough for us.
16 Friday, 23 July 2010 14:26
Aleksey Bolshakov
When I started to play mahjong on one of competitions by rules MCR more skilled player has rebuked me for an insignificant mistake, and has declared me "dead hand". To me it was awfully insulting. I thought: how so? I only start to play and I should forgive such trifles. But now I understand, that it was the correct remark. This mistake has for ever remained with me in memory and I am grateful to it.
I for that rules have been as much as possible described and were observed irrespective of experience of game.
17 Friday, 23 July 2010 17:08
Senechal
I value the fact that large tournaments can be places to make friends before and after, or even between in breaks. What I resent is that some people think *during* the game is the time to do this. It isn't during tournament or league play.

At one point, someone will need a big giant neon sign saying that tournaments aren't for coffee club or pub games. They're welcome to participate as long as they realize that there are rules to follow and that ignorance of them isn't an excuse.
18 Saturday, 24 July 2010 23:21
Christopher Rowe
I think Ian makes a perfectly good point here, which is just being waved away under the idea that tournaments should enforce the rules.

The first incident is a different issue, but the second and third issues are not enforcing rules, because the rules do not exist. They are not a case of punishing people for breaking rules, they are a case of people being cynical, pedantic and harsh for no due cause.

There is no rule that says once a score is written down it cannot be altered. Obviously once the hand has been shuffled back into the tiles then it would be a bit late to claim you had some yaku which wasn't counted at the time, but whether it was a mangan or a dealer mangan is fairly easy to recall, even a round or two later.

The same applies for the third rule. A false call of Ron or Tsumo when a hand is not a valid winning hand is a chombo penalty. However, I don't recall ever reading anything in the EMA rules (or any other Riichi rules for that matter) stating that a call of Pon can't be changed to a Ron. Sure, it's a fairly elementary mistake that shouldn't happen in the first place, but it makes no actual difference to the outcome of the game whether they call Ron from the start, or initially call Pon and then change it before they discard.

There were similarly ridiculous calls at the UK Open, one in particular I heard of being against a player who on their first turn would make their discard before drawing their tile. Not a good habit, but a player claiming that it meant they should have a dead hand because their hand temporarily (for about half a second) contained 12 tiles is just ridiculous. Players shouldn't be continually looking to have even the tiniest of potential rule violations by their opponents to be punished. I think it's terrible that someone would want to want to win so much that they'd sink to such pedantic and unsavoury behaviour.

It shouldn't be the case that you've got people looking out to penalise you for even the slightest error. It's quite easy to become nervous and/or excited at the tournaments, and these sorts of things are perfectly likely to happen. It's even easier if the play is going faster than you're used to, and you're feeling pressured for time.

To enforce rules is one thing, and it should definitely be done at tournaments, but punishing for the sake of punishing is unnecessary, and I think it will sour the game, as it will lead to the sort of backhanded tactics as in Ian's first hand to be more prevalent. If someone miscalculates their hand, and you notice, you should say whether it's to your advantage or not, if for no other reason than I think you'd rather they did the same to you. It shouldn't ever be the case that players are deliberately allowing other players to make mistakes because it's in their own interest not to say anything.
19 Sunday, 25 July 2010 14:34
Sénéchal
If you call Pon, it's because you weren't ready, or more importantly, aware of what will make you win.
Just because it's not on the print-out doesn't mean the rule doesn't exist (there's only so much space to explain most of the minutiae). It's also clearly in the JPML riichi rules available on their site. This is standard rules. Although if you agree the penalty is harsh and should be just a furiten penalty of having to naturally break their hand and keep playing, well, you may get more sympathizers to your position.

Case two still is a question of player responsibility. If only they assumed it before breaking their hand and shuffling again...
20 Monday, 26 July 2010 09:19
Tina Christensen
Regarding the mentioned draconian environment at MCR tournaments I would say that lesson was learned back in 2007 where there was pretty much this same reaction after an MCR championship. We have come a long way since then; the regulations are much clearer, some penalties have been softened and a referee manual was published before the Riichi EC in 2008. A referee training course (focussing on MCR, but touching briefly on riichi differences) took place in 2009 and will again this year in connection with the WMC in Utrecht in August.

EMA tournaments should be fair play and have clear rules. The rules are not meant to be exploited for own winning ("don't sue the principle"); they are made in order to have fair play at the tables. The EMA Riichi rules need a chapter on etiquette and handling irregularities. I am working on it. Please bear with me; it may take some time before it is ready.

Meanwhile, I am happy about this discussion!
21 Monday, 26 July 2010 10:15
P B
The concept of being friendly, in English, doesn't require at all that you expect to become friends. You can be friendly to a perfect stranger by, say, giving him directions, or helping a mum get a pram out of a bus. You'll never see them again, and you won't know their name, but you've been friendly. This is what I'd expect from any decent person in any circumstance - including at a mahjong table. We can use other words if you like - polite, nice, kind, fair etc. You can rightly call a chombo on a person and do it in a nice way, or you can do it in a nasty way, for instance gloating openly over your opponent's mistake.
I guess the good news is that, whatever Senechal thinks should happen at a mahjong table, I can say that every single person I played with in Hannover was actually polite and friendly, and a few let minor "infractions" go (amend the scores after they were written down, not penalizing a player for calling pon instead of mahjong in a couple of occasions), so it looks like that's more the rule than the exception. And that includes players who ended at the top, and whose game was clearly good enough for them to do very well without having to resort to looking to penalize their opponents. It is for me sad to hear that other people instead had some bad experience, and that's why I hope that the majority of players who seem to naturally bring politeness, respect and good old common sense to the table will manage to imprint their attitude on the way the game is played in the future.
Not once I advocated ignoring rules or not penalizing people for breaking rules (and neither does Ian); I repeat, let's all follow the rules but let's get rid of rules that penalize players for small mistakes that do not damage opponents.
22 Monday, 26 July 2010 13:34
Norbert Luckhardt
Even if it may not be that obvious here, the rules behind the three scenarios, Ian wrote about, do make sense and help to avoid actions, which would possibly damage others.

The general problem with rules (and laws etc.) is they have to be general - so if we think of eliminating the rules or rulings behind those scenarios, what would that mean?

1. forgotten 13th tile: If a player is allowed or even encouraged to tell somebody, that he forgot to take a tile, where could we draw the line? Why would it be different to tell somebody he layed out the wrong tiles in a chow? Both would help him avoid mistakes... Or maybe even tell him to strictly avoid discarding a dragon (if that'd be "dangerous") or talk otherwise about the situation at the table?

A general rule of "not passing any information concerning the game" is short and easyly understandable. To allow or encourage helping in _some_ circumstances while forbidding to do that in others will at least need complex rules and may easily induce more problems than it solves (help in counting is clearly distinguishable, but within the game it would get complicated IMHO).

Personally I think, it would be possible is allow players to explicitly state dead hands at the table, after the situation will no longer be changeable - this would lead to more clarity and at least nobody would be punished with a chombo, because he just didn't realize his/her hand was dead. However, this has been discussed for MCR before and up to now, the EMA decided that tournament players should be able to know themselves, if their hand is dead or not.

2. correction of score: actually there is no written rule about this - nevertheless there obviously needs to be a common ruling how to deal with that. IMHO it's generally a good idea to say it's fixed when it's written down and the math has been done. Otherwise extra time for another calculation would be needed and the score sheet easily gets cluttered. Anyway: The players should agree upon the _points_ before writing down the score, so the ruling might have better been different in the actual case... and anyway: if all players at a table agree to change the score, nobody will stop them.
23 Monday, 26 July 2010 13:35
Norbert Luckhardt
3. "Pong... ah, I mean Ron": there is a rule, which generally forbids the change of calls. This is an important rule! If it would not be in place, everybody would be able to change every call, which may lead to a lot of fuss in the progress of the game.

Especially with "Pung... Ron" being allowed, why would "Ron... ah no... just Pung" be forbidden? In this example (even if they should not do so) players might be tempted to show their hands after the first call... how much time should be allowed between the calls? why should we bother to have Pung calls within three seconds after a discard, when they could be changed afterwards? or why could "Chi... no wait... sorry - nothing... let's go on" be illegal, if other changes would be allowed?

To get rid of the rule "no changes of calls" would imply many possible hinderings for the swiftness of the game or again imply a complex structure of what's allowed to change in what time and what might not be changed etc. (but by the way: the proper penalty for the given situation in Ian's post is that the offending player has to just play his pung and discard - the first call is valid, the second call is void - no need for a dead hand here)

I don't see how we could loosen the rules behind those scenarios without either making them very much more complex or creating possibilities to really hinder the game or damage others. That's why I say: it's not the rules, which are to be changed, but (to a certain extent) the attitude of the players - and that's why I keep stressing the principles of "don't sue the principle" and of self arbitration at the table

I agree with Ian that "It is the duty of every player to create a pleasant play experience for fellow players." I disagree that this means helping each other whenever possible. Contrary I think helping is even unfair, because people will not get the same amount of help at different tables (be it for the abilities or attitudes of the fellow players) - but the results of your game play in a tournament should rely on yourself, and not on the fact with whom you sit at a particular table and how able, attentive or inclined your fellow players are to help you
24 Monday, 26 July 2010 17:44
P B
I like Norbert's approach of discussing the specific cases and why or why not they can cause problems; that's what can bring to some sensible rules. All those are definitely good points.
Norbert, you mention when you should be able to change a declaration. Some rules (which I agree with) say that you can do that as long as no tiles have been exposed. So if you say chi and you expose any tile, then you're stuck with it. But if you say chi, and then before showing your tiles realize you don't want/can't do it, it's OK to say so; I think at most, you've given some info to your opponents about what tiles you might hold.
Could that be the rule, maybe adding "don't expose your tiles if somebody goes out, until his/her hand has been assessed"? That would take care of the valid scenario you're mentioning.
You make a very good point about the uneven amount of "help" that different people might get if we allow "helping". However, I don't think you can completely avoid it anywyay. Say I have two people who look like they're ready, and a choice of two tiles for a discard, one of which could help one player and the other one which would help the other. If I have to take a risk, wouldn't I risk in favour of the nicer player?
Also, if the general attitude is that you should be helpful in some circumstances, I find it hard to believe that all three other players would "omit" to help. So if you're scoring your hand, as in Ian's example, and score yourself forgetting you're East, is it really expected that none of the other players will notice the error? My take is that it's highly unlikely, unless of course they want to take advantage of the mistake (which is exactly the attitude Ian suggests it would be good to eradicate).
I'm not sure that Ian (or I) advocates "helping each other whenever possible). I don't think anybody would want people to warn about dangerous discards, or comment on the game itself. But for instance I do dislike not to be able to point to South that he just missed picking up his tile, since that seems a not too uncommon mistake (especially if the person is still ironing out the scoring while the others are rushing to start the new game, and therefore is a bit distracted while providing a service to the other players, just to quote a real case.
25 Monday, 26 July 2010 18:10
Christopher Rowe
Something specifically for point 1, after discussing this with a few fellow players, is that the EMA rules state a chombo penalty must be paid for "claiming a tile after the hand is declared a dead hand". I would argue strongly that the hand was not already declared a dead hand, and that it was wrong that the player paid a chombo penalty. The hand has to be already declared dead before the call is made, and this was not the case for the incident as it has been described.

A personal story of mine would be that during the UK Open I'd riichi'd on quite a nice hand, and was I think understandably pretty eager for it to go out. I made the mistake of thinking a 7 Pin I'd drawn was a 6 Pin and called Tsumo, instantly realising my mistake and withdrawing the call. I was extremely grateful for Martin Rep, Jaewon Yu and James Neve, who I was playing with at the time, for not being harsh and punishing what was a fairly fundamental but also, in the moment, understandable mistake. It had nothing to do with lack of knowledge or skill but was because I'm a human being and as a result susceptible to making mistakes on occasion.

I think there's important things that make a difference to whether someone should pay a chombo or not, and my incident highlighted a few of them.

I noticed the mistake myself, I noticed immediately (before I'd even finished saying 'Tsumo') and I noticed before anything else happened. I didn't reveal any tiles in my hand, nor did anyone else. The only difference it made to the game was that I'd given a pretty good hint at what tile I was likely to be waiting for, something which only punishes me anyway. The fact that almost no time has elapsed and that ultimately the mistake made no difference to the game's flow (or at least none in my favour) is important in my view.
It's debatable about where the line should be drawn, but I think it's usually fairly clear whether the player has made a significant mistake and affected the game (a chombo) or has just gotten caught up in things and made a small error (a dead hand or less).

Also from the UK Open was an incident of someone deliberately making their first discard before drawing a tile from the wall (not a good habit, admittedly) being called out that their hand should be declared a dead hand because it contains only 12 tiles for all of about half a second. Technically true, but but still a ridiculously over-exuberant attempt to enforce rules.
26 Tuesday, 27 July 2010 13:19
PB
Interesting point about the chombo only being applicable after the hand is declared dead.
If that's correct, it would make things easier; I'd find it more acceptable to be asked not to alert the player that he's not picked up a tile, but only to alert him that he has a dead hand. Definitely a point to clarify for the future.
27 Tuesday, 27 July 2010 16:17
Anton
First of all I would like to thank Ian for speaking up and share his feelings with us as we should not discuss these matters at the table, but at the bar after the tournament or here. It is never too late to learn and improve the rules.
Although I am entering this discussion quite late, I would like to add a few points.

First of all, imho rules are there to allow a smooth and swift course of the game. Some of the rules may look childish at first, but all have a deeper meaning. E.g if your first call does not neccessarily stick, which call does? How many times can I change my mind? Or, if you are allowed to discard before taking a tile from the wall, how long does the next player have to wait before he his allowed to take a tile?
A good set of rules enable four players with different backgrounds, nationalities and native language to play mahjong without confusion.
We can always improve the rules, of course.

Secondly, people entering a competition should know the rules and accept the rules. Ignorance is no excuse not to apply a certain rule. Neither is it good sportmanship to discuss a rule at the table, or to claim non-appliance of a rule for your own benefit. It is also not fair to accuse the player that pointed out the mistake of 'unfriendliness'. If you make a mistake, accept the consequence, don't blame the messenger.
Still, we can always improve the rules and the applicable consequense of a foul.

To be continued…
28 Tuesday, 27 July 2010 17:25
Tom Sloper
1. If I noticed in time that a player hadn't taken his 13th tile, I'd tell him to take it. I don't care if somebody else gets angry for my telling him. But if nobody notices until it's too late for him to rectify the tile count, then it's his problem.

2. The score should be changed. The error was caught in time.

3. Since there is a widely-known rule that the verbal call cannot be changed, the ruling was correct in this case.
29 Tuesday, 27 July 2010 17:39
Anton
In the second part of my contribution I would like to look further into the cases that Ian put forward and make some suggestions to the EMA to improve our rule set.

1. In the first case North forgets to take his 13th tile. OK, but what did South see before he took his first tile? Two single tiles at the head of the living wall. Didn't that occur to him as strange? Why didn't he point out the irregularity at that moment? What tile did he take anyway? The one that should have been taken by North? In that case a malicious West could claim a dead hand for South too for taking a wrong tile of the wall! And if South had forgotten to take his 13th tile, what would West have done? Say nothing and take his tile under the tile that belonges to South? Probably not, he would hint South to take his tile. A malicious North could claim a dead hand for West because of 'passing information'.
And if in the tangle of tile grabing that takes places after the wall has been opened any player is left with 8 tiles because the next player grabbed his tiles to quick, we would just be a little annoyed but repair the situation.
And why is East often referred to as 'the Dealer'? Does that have any meaning?

Having given all this some thought, I suggest EMA to state in the rule book: 'All players are responsible for a correct dealing procedure. East verifies all tiles have been taken and all players have been able to change any flower-tiles.'

2. In the second case we should distinguish two things:
- the winning player is responsible to count and announce the value of his hand;
- all players are responsible to correctly record the score; one writes, the other check;
Suppose the scorer had erroneously noted West to be the discarder instead of South and the mistake was discovered, would we still say 'what is written cannot be undone'.
I leave it to the Richii-experts to find under whose responsibility the error where Ian refers to should be, but advise the EMA to clearly state the responsibility of all players for correctly recording scores and calculating on the score sheet.

3. For the last situation, I believe EMA rules are quite clear already. First call sticks ! Apart from a source of fun, mahjong is also a game of skill, nerves and luck. My satisfaction with playing mahjong is that I can improve my game by studying situations, by evaluating alternative strategies, by being very aware of the possiblities my hand has and the appropriate actions to take when a certain tile is discarded. All this seperates good player from a better player. A good but slightly nervous player will make a mistake sometimes, but do we allow a nervous football player to try again when he misses a decisive penalty just because he was nervous? The best player has got skill, has nerves of steel and his/her fair share of luck. If we would arrange the game such that always the luckiest player would win, we might as well organize a lottery and put a video of the draw on YouTube.
30 Tuesday, 27 July 2010 18:36
Christopher Rowe
In my opinion far too much unnecessary fuss and debate is made about point 2.

The correct score is the correct score. It doesn't matter how long ago the error was made, it doesn't change that fact. If you can fairly conclusively agree that the score written down is incorrect, and the correct score is also conclusively agreed upon, then it should be changed.

If a player has broken up his hand and shuffled the tiles back into the middle of the table, then "remembers" a yaku or minipoints that wasn't counted, then that's different. It's extremely hard then for all players to agree that the score was wrong, because the hand is no longer visible. In that situation the score should be left as-written.

It's not whether the score is written down or not that matters. It's whether players can agree on what the correct score would have been, in which case that's the one that should go down. It's the simple, most logical way of doing things. To allow an incorrect score to stand, even when all the players can acknowledge it's incorrect, is just silly, and it's allowing more aggressive players to wrongly bully other players out of points.
31 Wednesday, 28 July 2010 10:26
Tina Christensen
Regarding point 2 about correcting the score, mind you there is a big difference between MCR and Riichi.

In MCR the winner must score his own hand. And when he declares that he is done, the score is recorded, and after that no changes can be made. Scoring in MCR is more difficult, so reconstructing it afterwards is more tricky.

In riichi, all players should participate in the scoring and ensure that the hand is scored correct. Therefore, in my opinion, if all players agree that a scoring mistake was made, it should be corrected.
32 Friday, 30 July 2010 05:28
Bryan Belows
I totally disagree with Ian Fraser. It's like if he complained the water was too cold at the Olympics while half of the swimmers were drowning at the bottom of the pool.

Tournaments aren't for recreational players to make friends. They are for finding who's the best amongst masters of the discipline. If you don't master ALL aspects of the game, you shouldn't be allowed at a championship. If you are unable to handle the pressure of competition, you shouldn't compete.

The real scandal is not mean spiritedness, but players so clueless they don't realize they are missing tiles, so lost they don't realize they are the dealer, and so mediocre they don't know whether they have a ready hand or not.
33 Friday, 30 July 2010 10:53
Tina Christensen
Please realize that it is still early days for European riichi tournaments.

I don't think it's fair to call the skill level a "real scandal"; we are very much in the process of building a riichi community in Europe. Such things take time. To expect top professionalism from day one is unrealistic, and even quite experienced players can make mistakes in the heat of battle.

The skill level of play has increased significantly since the first European riichi championship two years ago, and I am convinced it will continue to do so.
34 Monday, 02 August 2010 17:27
Johannes Scott-Weijers
My suggestion would be an addition to the ubiquitous score cards: the penalties for wrong moves, clearly laid out, and how to issue them or advise of faults, i.e. declaring dead hands in a timely and fair manner, and before they can be corrected by devious means.
If every player, in their language, were aware beforehand of what the consequences were for a false call or taking from the wrong end (the main faults in MCR), and we had these at hand to refer to, life would be a lot easier.
A section on annoying habits, sharp nails and bad sportsmanship might also be added.
35 Monday, 02 August 2010 19:50
Bryan Belows
Yes, experienced players can make mistakes in the heat of battle, but no true contender would complain it's objectionable to punish rules infractions or to let bad players deal with their own insufficiencies. The best help we can offer to beginners is not to compensate for their lack of skill, but to point it out. They might find it insulting at first, but, as Aleksey Bolshakov wrote above, they will eventually understand the virtues of those wakeup calls.

Sure, the situation will improve with time. Meanwhile, we don't have true standard rules, but rules tweaked towards beginners. We don't have all players mastering the rules either.

So, if it isn't a true championship yet, but more a large scale meet for beginners to gain experience, I would prefer a lot more to have it called a "rally" or a "rendezvous". More true to its real nature.
36 Saturday, 07 August 2010 21:43
Martin Rep
Discussion on this topic is closed. You may want to read the conclusion in
this column by the editor.

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